Bathroom Go ByeBye

Well let's see...

It all started innocently enough in July of '98....

It started with a leak in the master baths shower stall. The water leaked through the floor and poured into the kitchen floor below. We called our insurance agent, who promptly called their "standard" contractor to come have a look see. The next afternoon, two gentlemen showed up to look over the damage and give us an estimate on the repairs.

Since the repairs were extensive (about $5k), and required total removal and replacement of the floor and subflooring as well as a large amount of the walls, we thought, "Hey! What a great time to remodel!". So......we though we would go ahead and take the insurance money and pay the difference ourselves to remodel the bathroom.

After getting an estimate (and I use that term VERY loosely), the contractor representing the insurance company told me that our remodeling would cost us an additional $5,000. He also mentioned that if we went to a smaller contractor, their overhead is much lower and could potentially save two or three thousand AND he just happened to have someone who works for him that's also a General Contractor that has a business on the side that could do the job.

The next day, this guys shows up, gives me an estimate thats about $3k less. "GREAT!" I think, we'll be able to do everything we wanted *and* save big bucks! [ Editor's note - the warning sign! I fell for that too! ] He also said that if he started "right away" we could be taking a bath in our new bathroom in 4-5 weeks TOPS.

Below is a chronological history of what actually transpired:

July '98 - Tear out floors and walls, plumber comes in to reroute pipes. Floor subcontractor comes in and puts in marble flooring. So far so good...

Aug '98 - NO ONE SHOWS UP FOR AN ENTIRE MONTH. Repeated calls to the GC (General Contractor), goes unanswered. Now we have a really nice floor, no toilet, no sink, no walls and six inches of drywall dust on everything in our bedroom, especially up our noses. We snort drywall dust for weeks. We greet friends at the door looking like coke addicts.

Sept '98 - Carpenter comes in and puts up walls, cuts Lexan shower walls for faucets and discovers. (after cutting the Lexan shower wall), that the plumber had the pipes offcenter by 4 inches. Construction stops while GC reorders new shower wall.

GC promptly fires previous plumber.

Oct '98 - 4 weeks later, replacement wall comes in, it's damaged in shipment, GC reorders another wall...we wait an additional two weeks (first reorder took 4 weeks).

Mid Oct '98 - 2nd replacement wall arrives and is installed successfully. However "new" plumber, who has had zero training in professional plumbing, (he works for the Park service "winterizing" their park restrooms), installs our brand spanking new Kohler $400 shower faucet, handle and shower head with vise grips..successfully tearing through the chrome and brass completely destroying our entire shower assembly. GC is infuriated, fires second plumber and reorders new faucets...again we wait another two weeks. While waiting for its arrival, we discover that the sink is offcenter and the toilet isn't mounted to the floor. Advise GC of this, he says that it'll be repaired.

Nov. 98 - Replacement faucets arrive. THIRD plumber comes in and successfully installs the faucets. Also "repairs" the sink and toilet.

Nov 98 - Painter arrives. We can't stay home, so we leave while he is working. Come home to discover that he has used the wrong paint, and painted half the ceiling one color and the other side another. Discover that evening that he has gone into our liquor cabinet, drank my vodka and refilled the bottle with water. Carpenter comments that "alchohol is a comon problem with painters".

Dec. 98 - Repaint by *another* painter is complete. Carpenter comes in to do minor touchup. Four days before Christmas (FIVE MONTHS after the promised due date), our bathroom is complete! I jump in to take it's "maiden" shower.

There's no hot water.

There's hot water in the sink, just not in the shower.

A week later (now it's past Christmas), it's repaired (the internal adjustment screw in the shower handle wasn't adjusted). We finally have a working shower.

To makes matters worse, the total bill ended up costing us MORE than the original estimate from the insurance companys contractor and it took the GC five times longer than promised to get it done.

Down the road, during the same time we were having the bathroom remodeled, a construction company had started building a 12 story office park. By Thanksgiving, THE OFFICE BUILDING WAS COMPLETE AND THERE WERE PEOPLE WORKING THERE. We STILL didn't have our bathroom complete. It took a month longer to have our bathroom remodeled than for an entire office building to be built and occupied! And they have LOTS of bathrooms!

If GC's ran NASA, we'd still be scratching our heads over gunpower.

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We'll Send You To Lake Tahoe!

Well, I ordered a new AC and new ductwork., along with a new heater. The ducts under the house had been designed for heat, not AC and so they didn't have the same diameter as AC ducts. So here's the first problem I faced. When I interviewed the contractors, they ranged from idiot to pretty good as far as assessing my needs vis a vis the size of the AC unit itself.

Some just said that I needed a 5 ton, based on their "look" at the size of my house. One went around, counted the windows, got the floor space, checked the orientation of the house, and then recommended a size. 3.5 tons, I believe. Quite the difference. Others were in between. I got the ASHRAE standards, figured them out, did my own calculations, and concurred with the precise guy. Unfortunately, most consumers won't be able to run their own numbers but it's the way I avoided listening to "the stupids." Then I calculated the flow necessary for the size unit I was getting, verified my current ducts were inadequate and, along with the better guy, re-worked the entire duct system on paper.

So far, so good. You should know it's hard to get around under my house (really hard). They knew this as well. Well, when they came into the house they definitely did take out my old heat registers (the thingee the heat comes out of that's inset into the floor) They put in bigger ones. They said they were done. So I stuck my hand into the register and what did I find?

Anyway, here's what I deduced by feel. The ducts were 4 inches, the same as they'd been for 30 years. So I went under the house. Now Claire had told them I'd be going under to verify but they may well have thought, yeah, right - what homeowner will really do that? Ha!

Every ducts was original. They hadn't changed them at all. So I called the guy in. He was a nice older guy and I'm a nice guy so I didn't rant and rave. I simple told him the facts. Here's what I said. "As far as I can tell there's only 2 logical possibilities. Either the person doing the installation is incompetent or I'm being ripped off. Nobody in their right mind should increase the size of the register and not know that the duct behind HAD to be increased as well. Otherwise why was the register increased in size? But that implies an amazingly stupid installer. The other possibility is that nobody thought I'd check and so they'd try to rip me off. I'm sorry to have to be so harsh but I don't see ANY other possibility and neither of these makes me very happy."

He apologized, said he had no idea what happened, couldn't figure it out, etc. Of course they'd do it immediately. Oh, they also didn't increase the main supply from the AC itself, which is a big job. So they went back and re-did. And still didn't do it right. Again I went under and again found that, although they'd fixed the main supply plenum and did re-do some ducts, there were still 2 that hadn't been re-done.

He told me it was because it was just too difficult to get to that part of the house.

I told him I'd been to EVERY part of the house, knew exactly how hard it was and knew it could be done.

They asked what would make me happy. Since by this time I wasn't really convinced the increase was needed in the remaining place and I could have it done later if I decided it was needed, I told him I wanted the duct expansion done for free. They don't do the ones they were supposed to and I don't pay for the ones they did. I think it was something like 500 bucks off. He said fine. Furthermore, some months later I got a free 3 night vacation deal sent to me. Seems it's a deal they give their best sales guys - 3 nights anywhere in the acceptable places on the brochure over the US and the world. They'd been bought by a new owner and he asked for who had been the most unhappy customer in the past year. TaDa. So we went to Tahoe. Nice trip (not really a great hotel though).

So that's what can happen. I had the advantage of dealing with an established firm - major player in the area - one that wasn't keen on getting a bad rep. I also had to be "nicely" confrontational.

Good tip - talk to your local hardware store to get recommendations on contractors for roofs, plumbing, etc. They hear all the good and bad stories from their customers so they're good sources of info.

Tip 2. When someone gives a bid, ask them exactly how they came up with it. When they size the AC ask them what they're basing it on. When they recommend flex pipe, ask them why. You can build a data base from each one you speak with which adds to the arsenal of questions for the next. It helps if you're a handyman/woman and can ferret out the info on your own, of course, but since most aren't using each of them to educate you more is a good move. We had one guy say flex pipe was great and the way to go for ducts. Well, it's cheaper, that's for sure. It's just a spiral of wire with plastic around it, like a big, fragile hose that goes to the hair dryer you see in salons - the big ones that go over the whole head of the person sitting under them. Very easy for mice, rats, raccoons, whatever, to chew into. Easy to rip accidentally. Lousy insulation. Or you can do it right and get sheet steel, wrapped in fiberglass with an outer plastic wrap. More money. Harder to do. Much better and stronger. Of course, if you don't know one bidder is bidding with the cheapie stuff and the other is doing sheet steel, you'd think the expensive guy was trying to rip you off. But he wasn't.

Here's another tip. After you get the estimate from guy A, then a lower one from buy B you can call up guy A and tell him you've got a lower bid from guy B and would guy A like to come down? If he does, reject him. It means he actually did inflate his bid. If he says no then that's good. He might inquire as to what actually was being done by guy B so he could show where the job was being done in a lesser fashion. Or he might just say sorry, that's the price to do it right. If you're a quality person and stand behind a high grade of work you won't be worrying about competing for low price - you know what you're worth and you know you're offering a fair price for a good job.

Benson Tongue

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Would you build your house on the cut side of a riverbank?

You may have this one already let me know.

As a Realtor who has been a home inspector the biggest scam I see is the "water proofing contractor". I was recently looking at our regional business magazine and saw an article on a contractor of this nature who had around 50 employees complete with trucks etc. ad nauseaum. 99% of all water in the basement problems can be fixed with simple landscaping procedures and precautions, but that isn't a high ticket item. The money is in: french drains, sump pump installations, digging around a foundation etc. What many don't realize is that these procedures are detrimental to the foundation because they cause water to flow around the house and what does flowing water cause? Erosion. Would you build your house on the cut side of a riverbank?

Amos Peverill Your Real Estate Consultant for Life!
email: therealtor@lynchburg.net
website: http://www.RealEstateConsultant1.com
home office: 804-525-2821
pager: 804-948-2330
Professional Realty Group 8684 Timberlake Road Lynchburg, VA 2450

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Who's responsible if the codes change?

Well unfortunately, I am going to add to your contractor from hell handbook, and I really don't like to keep adding to this in this way. Here's what is happening to me and the contractors I work with.

We applied to build two new homes on Holly Street. They are 2,512 square feet and 2,685 square feet respectably. We also decided that we would extend the existing city sewer service so that we don't have to install septic tanks (which many people are fearful of).

So, here we are, we get ourselves a Professional Engineer and we get ourselves a sewer design. We run down to the Township Municipal Sewer Authority, post ourselves a $24,550 sewer bond. Since we have to also cut the street to extend the sewer we run down to the Road Department and pay roughly $5,000 additional to post a road bond. Now we need wells, and we want good wells because we don't want to be sued in the future due to bad water. So the engineer wants us to go at least 100' into the ground. That's not good enough for us, so we put wells in a minimum of 210' feet deep. So now the well man asks us for $8,000 to pay for the two wells, which is fine, so we pay him. Now we need to pay the sewer man $15,000 to extend the sewer and then we pay the plumber an additional $4,000 to connect all of this stuff together. That's not including the heavy equipment work we did ourselves because we own our own backhoe (thank God for that, so we saved about $2,500).

Now these nice people come by and they purchase the first house, pick out their tiles and countertops and even schedule a closing on their house. So now they are ready to sell the house they live in and move into our house on the 22nd of February. So we, not liking to procrastinate, have the house ready for final inspection and all of our approvals and paperwork into the Township on February 8th. So a few days after the 8th, we get our final inspection and they make us add a few hand rails, and put some additional railings on the front. So now the town comes back and says that everything is okay and here is your final approval for the final building inspection. They tell me to come to town and pick up the Certificate of Occupancy. Great!!! Now most builders are never ready for a closing. We have the reputation of being on time and it actually helps us sell our houses.

So we go to town hall and they tell us that all the paperwork looks good and the only thing they are waiting for is a Certificate of Compliance for the Well. Oh, Gee!! That was done back in August! I have to go to the Health Department and figure out what happened. So I go there and I find out that they need the "As Builts" for the Sewer Design. Gee!!! They should have had that. Damn Engineer, I think to myself. I'll go there and get it. I call the engineer like a maniac demanding my paperwork. They agree easily and it will be ready in a half hour and I can come get it. Wonderful!!

I go pick it up the plans and I rush them to the Health Department. My throat is beginning to close up because I am less than a week away from the closing and I need to get this done. Okay I bring the paperwork to the knucle draggers at the Health Department. Since it is 12:05pm, they can't look at this today, so I should call back tommorow. Ahh!!!

Tommorow I call and the supervisor named Ken, the only one that can read this print, is sick. And he is sick the next day, and he is sick the third day, and he is sick on the fourth day. Now on the fifth day I go to the Health Department with my attorney. We then find out that we have a sewer lateral within 25 feet of the well and it will have to be moved. Now the new location will be within 25 feet of the well on the second house, so that well will have to me moved. We will have to reroute the entire plumbing in the house so that the sewer and water can enter and exit the house in new locations. So now the buyers close on their house and they cannot move into their new house, so they are in a panic. So what to do? Well if you're my company., you offer to pay $250 per day to store their stuff in a climate controlled environment at the moving company, and you pay an additional $300 per day to provide accomidations at the local Marriot (sp?) including breakfast, lunch, dinner, and movies at night. So now we're losing $550 per day and days are dragging to the weekend, and now it's Monday. So now we are told all we simply have to do is abandoned the second well (abandoned that $4,000), go get a new permit to abandon the well, get a permit to drill a new well, get a permit to abandon the sewer line, update the plumbing permit to reroute the lines in the house, contact the Soil Conservation Committe to have the lot reinspected, tear up the yard, strike fear into the first buyer because she and her husband think we don't know what the heck we are doing concering building a house, and pay $550 per day until all of this is done and inspected.

Now, why would the town approve our sewer design and then fail it after it has been installed? Well they made a mistake when they scaled the distances between the lines and "sorry". Also, our engineer should have know the distances when they designed the sewer in the first place.

Okay, so now I am really ready to cry, and take the profit on the first house and flush it. That's okay, I don't mind working five months day and night seven days per week for nothing.

Well unfortunately, this story isn't even finished yet, because I have to fill in more details and I have to see just how much this is going to cost us. Well we have added about $35,000 so far to our costs, and we don't make that much on the houses.

The moral to the story, you have to make sure the people you hire are up to date on all the latest and greatest details because the building departments are not liable. They missed it on the print, and they approved the print, but we are still liable and have to fix it. Now we can go back and forth about who to sue and who to blame but while we are in a pissing contest with our engineer and the Township there is a family that would like to live in the house they want to live in.

I'll keep you posted, but keep in mind this could be a homeowner hiring us to build a house that has a construction loan and now they need an additional $35,000 at least and at this stage, the money is gone. The house is finished. Talk about a rock and a hard place.

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